coelurus, i'm not bitching about what you say. I'm curious.... what's your ideal game?
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currahee
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Well.... you really can't go anything further than linear in First Person Shooters really.... RPGs are still linear too (it's just hidden really really well in terms of storyline)
coelurus, i'm not bitching about what you say. I'm curious.... what's your ideal game?
coelurus, i'm not bitching about what you say. I'm curious.... what's your ideal game?
"Not long ago, the Black Gate of Armonk swung open. The lights went out, my skin crawled, and dogs began to howl. I asked my neighbor what it was and he said, 'Those are the nazgul. Once they were human, now they are IBM's lawyers.'"
Hum, let's see if I can sort this out...
The single most important thing ever in an FPS to me is to feel that you have some kind of a goal, a feeling that you know what you have to do and you do that in the game. HL2 just didn't give me that feeling, I felt like I grabbed the red, linear thread and followed it because I was somehow stuck to it. I only felt the need to crush the Combine a few times through the game, the rest was just shooting and going around places I had no idea why I went to. The beginning and the end were fun.
For me, NOLF did things a lot better. Yes, very linear games, but the missions were pretty well laid out and I knew what I was doing (NOLF better than NOLF). Plus there really were different ways of playing through that game (run with your guns a'blaze or sneak around and fool enemies to get past them or even knock them unconscious, I love that
). They also feel a lot more polished art-wise (and they were 'fun' but that's not as important).
I really should say something more, but I can't figure it out atm... Deus Ex had great mood btw.
So, I'd say a story-driven FPS needs good goals, different ways to approach things, grand environments, polished art etc.
Now, for the ideal overall game... Ugh.
My friend and I are tinkering with a very open RPG-style game. He's a big fan of, uhm, "braid RPG" and Fallout (I've played neither of them, but he's showed me a little) and by taking a few stupid things out of both and adapting it to a realtime game with a few extra details I won't expose here, I think we'll have a very nice game going indeed Also, no silly magic or orcs or anything like that, only humans in a rather moody environment with one grand goal in mind, which I won't expose either 
Let's just say it's a no-loading-time game with a very big, detailed world and all that, a cool combat system (which would be the coolest thing in any game if we succeed in doing it) constantly thinking NPCs (and there will be a few throughout the world) etc. As most big amateur-projects, we have not come close to the final result practically, but we're working on it. Note that we're not limited by any deadlines either, so we can play around with the NPCs for ages without anybody complaining. They are the most important things in the game, because, as in real life, they shape the world. There are no game-wise hacks to handle the open and dynamic worlds, the NPCs will do that themselves (because the game is supposed to be dynamic and have no boss or anything like that, having a super-module handling everything happening in the game would be rather pointless anyhow). Never seen that before and that's what many RPGamers want.
This must have taken ages to write...
EDIT: The problem with so-called open and huge-env games today is that they really are not. Intros are no problem (is the hl2-intro impressive? I must've missed something...), atleast not in the game I'm working on and there will be a sort of outro. One problem with huge worlds is that there should be a lot of running going on but we got a few ideas to sort that problem out. Open worlds would be just great, because that's something I really miss. What if the things you do in the world _really_ affect what people/things think of you? You won't have a gauge on "evilness" and if that pops from 3 to 4, everybody stops talking to you in a fraction of a second. Or, if you meet a group of wolves in the woods, they will immediately start to chase you no matter what you do. Things that come as irritating to me and I often tend to shut down games because I feel it's a lot more fun to play with a deck of cards with which I can do whatever I want
Of course, a game like this won't be for everybody, that's how it is. But it'll be a game which will contain a lot what I would like to see. Lots more details to set out, but I usually do that as time passes by during dev.
The single most important thing ever in an FPS to me is to feel that you have some kind of a goal, a feeling that you know what you have to do and you do that in the game. HL2 just didn't give me that feeling, I felt like I grabbed the red, linear thread and followed it because I was somehow stuck to it. I only felt the need to crush the Combine a few times through the game, the rest was just shooting and going around places I had no idea why I went to. The beginning and the end were fun.
For me, NOLF did things a lot better. Yes, very linear games, but the missions were pretty well laid out and I knew what I was doing (NOLF better than NOLF). Plus there really were different ways of playing through that game (run with your guns a'blaze or sneak around and fool enemies to get past them or even knock them unconscious, I love that
). They also feel a lot more polished art-wise (and they were 'fun' but that's not as important).I really should say something more, but I can't figure it out atm... Deus Ex had great mood btw.
So, I'd say a story-driven FPS needs good goals, different ways to approach things, grand environments, polished art etc.
Now, for the ideal overall game... Ugh.
My friend and I are tinkering with a very open RPG-style game. He's a big fan of, uhm, "braid RPG" and Fallout (I've played neither of them, but he's showed me a little) and by taking a few stupid things out of both and adapting it to a realtime game with a few extra details I won't expose here, I think we'll have a very nice game going indeed
Also, no silly magic or orcs or anything like that, only humans in a rather moody environment with one grand goal in mind, which I won't expose either Let's just say it's a no-loading-time game with a very big, detailed world and all that, a cool combat system (which would be the coolest thing in any game if we succeed in doing it) constantly thinking NPCs (and there will be a few throughout the world) etc. As most big amateur-projects, we have not come close to the final result practically, but we're working on it. Note that we're not limited by any deadlines either, so we can play around with the NPCs for ages without anybody complaining. They are the most important things in the game, because, as in real life, they shape the world. There are no game-wise hacks to handle the open and dynamic worlds, the NPCs will do that themselves (because the game is supposed to be dynamic and have no boss or anything like that, having a super-module handling everything happening in the game would be rather pointless anyhow). Never seen that before and that's what many RPGamers want.
This must have taken ages to write...
EDIT: The problem with so-called open and huge-env games today is that they really are not. Intros are no problem (is the hl2-intro impressive? I must've missed something...), atleast not in the game I'm working on and there will be a sort of outro. One problem with huge worlds is that there should be a lot of running going on but we got a few ideas to sort that problem out. Open worlds would be just great, because that's something I really miss. What if the things you do in the world _really_ affect what people/things think of you? You won't have a gauge on "evilness" and if that pops from 3 to 4, everybody stops talking to you in a fraction of a second. Or, if you meet a group of wolves in the woods, they will immediately start to chase you no matter what you do. Things that come as irritating to me and I often tend to shut down games because I feel it's a lot more fun to play with a deck of cards with which I can do whatever I want
Of course, a game like this won't be for everybody, that's how it is. But it'll be a game which will contain a lot what I would like to see. Lots more details to set out, but I usually do that as time passes by during dev.
Last edited by coelurus on Sun 26 Dec, 2004 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kozak
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I think that's what most RPGgamers think they want but when they play it are dissapointed.
With non-lineair gameplay you can't have incoded cutscenes thus less impressive (like intro and outro of HL2). RPGs are books, the beginning and ending and the inbetween are written down and you experience it.
I think the open-ending and 'huge environment' game ideas are a hype started by someone some years ago, and I have yet to to see a good game which uses those techniques.
With non-lineair gameplay you can't have incoded cutscenes thus less impressive (like intro and outro of HL2). RPGs are books, the beginning and ending and the inbetween are written down and you experience it.
I think the open-ending and 'huge environment' game ideas are a hype started by someone some years ago, and I have yet to to see a good game which uses those techniques.
"They say that sea was created by a man named Maarten Zwartbol, a long time ago...." - Duck, an old Corbin version
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koolmansam375
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It's pretty well-known that too much of something will eventually turn bad. Plus, all the open-ended stuff depends on what approach you choose to code it. If one would follow today's regular coding-style for games, it wouldn't work. New techniques have to be used and that's where the plugin-system of Sledge comes in handy (I haven't touched the Sledge source code at all while writing and designing all the dependent source code outside).
Just to be on the safe side, we got a backup-project in which we would have to sacrifice the most tricky parts from our main project and add in a little bit of story to drive the game along with a totally different theme and a little higher pace.
But in any case, posts here won't do much... I'm off.
EDIT: This forum makes me come back all the time. Dangerous.
I changed to Sledge a pretty long time ago, but I've been very quiet around here during my uni studies. Either I had to study, program on Sledge or be lazy, never had time to get here.
Right now, I'm stuck with my plugin for text rendering in X, I need some kind of reference over all the diff ways to rasterize the text (xmb, xwc, utf8, hard to find resources on that).
Back to bed...
Just to be on the safe side, we got a backup-project in which we would have to sacrifice the most tricky parts from our main project and add in a little bit of story to drive the game along with a totally different theme and a little higher pace.
But in any case, posts here won't do much... I'm off.
EDIT: This forum makes me come back all the time. Dangerous.
I changed to Sledge a pretty long time ago, but I've been very quiet around here during my uni studies. Either I had to study, program on Sledge or be lazy, never had time to get here.
Right now, I'm stuck with my plugin for text rendering in X, I need some kind of reference over all the diff ways to rasterize the text (xmb, xwc, utf8, hard to find resources on that).
Back to bed...
Last edited by coelurus on Mon 27 Dec, 2004 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
You turned out to start with one of the best FPSs out there shadowing, nice going I'm a little more into the programming aspect of things so I tend to see lots of technical misses that can be included/improved upon today, which makes me sound like a whiner and all...
Anyway, I haven't had a thorough look at Ogre yet, but I guess it's not far from what I have done. One major difference is that Sledge is totally plugin-driven, there's no renderer, no image loader, no model loader, no sound engine or anything like that inside Sledge. I use a little trick (that a few engine programmers I know did not believe in for some reason) in order to communicate with the plugins and so far I have not bumped into the problem that the interface would too restricted for all the kinds of plugins I need. Atm, I got 7 plugins; OpenGL display, hi-rez timers, image-loading, material mgr, texture mgr, object files and the basics for a GUI. That's maybe less than half of all the plugins I'll need for a proper tech demo.
Ogre seems to only allow the scene management bit to be plugged in, which means that if a small module in the main engine needs a change (for example, the timer module could need a better way than using timegettime), you'd need a full recompilation (~a minute or worse). Using a plugin for the timer, you'd only have to recompile the plugin (~a second or so).
Ogre also uses lots of hardcore C++ features such as templates, exception handling etc, and they are not really that practical due to problems with C++ standards. OTOH the code for Sledge is rather hardcore too as I like making things compact and quick the C-way (the z80-coding has its share of my programming style).
And the most important bit: Ogre was started a lot earlier and it's pretty much completed, Sledge is still under heavy development
Ah, Ogre is open source, I dunno what will turn out from my engine.
I'm a little more into the programming aspect of things so I tend to see lots of technical misses that can be included/improved upon today, which makes me sound like a whiner and all...Anyway, I haven't had a thorough look at Ogre yet, but I guess it's not far from what I have done. One major difference is that Sledge is totally plugin-driven, there's no renderer, no image loader, no model loader, no sound engine or anything like that inside Sledge. I use a little trick (that a few engine programmers I know did not believe in for some reason) in order to communicate with the plugins and so far I have not bumped into the problem that the interface would too restricted for all the kinds of plugins I need. Atm, I got 7 plugins; OpenGL display, hi-rez timers, image-loading, material mgr, texture mgr, object files and the basics for a GUI. That's maybe less than half of all the plugins I'll need for a proper tech demo.
Ogre seems to only allow the scene management bit to be plugged in, which means that if a small module in the main engine needs a change (for example, the timer module could need a better way than using timegettime), you'd need a full recompilation (~a minute or worse). Using a plugin for the timer, you'd only have to recompile the plugin (~a second or so).
Ogre also uses lots of hardcore C++ features such as templates, exception handling etc, and they are not really that practical due to problems with C++ standards. OTOH the code for Sledge is rather hardcore too as I like making things compact and quick the C-way (the z80-coding has its share of my programming style).
And the most important bit: Ogre was started a lot earlier and it's pretty much completed, Sledge is still under heavy development
Ah, Ogre is open source, I dunno what will turn out from my engine.
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Kozak
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I wouldn't make it open source. If you can make it really good and 'know' people you can give out licenses for 10's of thousands of dollars. Atleast the Unreal 3 engine has been licensed for millions.
And I don't think there's a general 'good FPS' idea. It's impossible to satisfy everyone. I am a big fan of cutscene, surrealism and special effects...so a bit moviesque style FPS. Ofcourse singleplayer, multiplayer is whole other field. I wonder how something like FEAR (probably going to dissapoint) Pariah (probably going to dissapoint) and STALKER (probably not going to dissapoint) are going to turn out.
And I don't think there's a general 'good FPS' idea. It's impossible to satisfy everyone. I am a big fan of cutscene, surrealism and special effects...so a bit moviesque style FPS. Ofcourse singleplayer, multiplayer is whole other field. I wonder how something like FEAR (probably going to dissapoint) Pariah (probably going to dissapoint) and STALKER (probably not going to dissapoint) are going to turn out.
"They say that sea was created by a man named Maarten Zwartbol, a long time ago...." - Duck, an old Corbin version
Unreal Engine 3.0 can be licensed for quite a few bucks because of the brand and the engine really is nice. Maybe I'll follow the lines of Garage Games with their Torque Engine, a cheap very popular 3D engine that can do quite a lot (but not like the big guy's engines). Maybe I could distribute the Sledge engine for free (which hardly does anything) and then license plugins... Lots of possibilities with this layout.
I'm no avid fan of a generic FPS either, but I'd like to expand upon what I miss today. The worst bit still is the feeling that you can only do one thing in the game really to progress. I'm all for a story with a rigid start and end but with more open choices inbetween (why do I have to go and sabotage a power station when instead I could go and grab some intel over at a camp a mile away or so?).
FEAR has some nice stuff going on, but 95% of all the gameplay is running and gunning.
Pariah looks too much like bubble-sci-fi or something, silly while trying to be serious.
Stalker looks very good and seems to have a somewhat slower pace? Features more free-style FPS gaming too, which I hope will be what I've been waiting for Or not, I want to make a good FPS myself...
I'm no avid fan of a generic FPS either, but I'd like to expand upon what I miss today. The worst bit still is the feeling that you can only do one thing in the game really to progress. I'm all for a story with a rigid start and end but with more open choices inbetween (why do I have to go and sabotage a power station when instead I could go and grab some intel over at a camp a mile away or so?).
FEAR has some nice stuff going on, but 95% of all the gameplay is running and gunning.
Pariah looks too much like bubble-sci-fi or something, silly while trying to be serious.
Stalker looks very good and seems to have a somewhat slower pace? Features more free-style FPS gaming too, which I hope will be what I've been waiting for
Or not, I want to make a good FPS myself...-
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A little late, but yes I have the game, I just wasn't being specific about the name of the combine overmatch rifle.
About the water though, it looks GREAT when you're on top of it. Under it, or partly submerged, it just looks like it's a flat plane, not like the edge of water.
In Far Cry, the water looks much more real; you get distortion from both sides of the water. I'm not saying it's bad in HL2, just, it could have been done better. It's certainly better done than Halo 2...
About the water though, it looks GREAT when you're on top of it. Under it, or partly submerged, it just looks like it's a flat plane, not like the edge of water.
In Far Cry, the water looks much more real; you get distortion from both sides of the water. I'm not saying it's bad in HL2, just, it could have been done better. It's certainly better done than Halo 2...
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tr1p1ea
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Best water i have ever seen in-game is Mario Sunshine on GameCube. Realistic shores and waves ... you try to swim out to sea and it gets mighty rough sometimes ... i could spend all day swimming in that game . Also the HANDS-DOWN best real-time weather effects i have ever seen also come from the GameCube title Starfox Adventures ... the rain in that game is insane! Plus that game had real-time fur mapping, depth of field, cool lighting and reflections ... pity it wasnt the best game, but still for virtually a first generation title it rocked .
. Also the HANDS-DOWN best real-time weather effects i have ever seen also come from the GameCube title Starfox Adventures ... the rain in that game is insane! Plus that game had real-time fur mapping, depth of field, cool lighting and reflections ... pity it wasnt the best game, but still for virtually a first generation title it rocked ."My world is Black & White. But if I blink fast enough, I see it in Grayscale."
