Debate thread (revived)

Arcane WIzard · Post by **Arcane WIzard** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 11:12 pm

Try changing something then.

Timendus · Post by **Timendus** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 11:25 pm

I believe several people, including me, suggested moving on. Some even proposed topics

And I'm not saying that the topic isn't good, it's just sad to see the same old (and blatantly untrue) arguments against evolution over and over again...

Homestar · Post by **Homestar** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 12:14 am

Timendus wrote:I believe several people, including me, suggested moving on. Some even proposed topics
And I'm not saying that the topic isn't good, it's just sad to see the same old (and blatantly untrue) arguments against evolution over and over again...

no-prob. just let me post one-last-post I've been working on, and I will gladly move-on.

Arcane WIzard · Post by **Arcane WIzard** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 12:16 am

Agreed, but please move on to a nice interesting topic, not something boring. : )

dysfunction · Post by **dysfunction** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 1:01 am

I agree... new topic suggestions? Please not something lame like Linux vs Windows, it's much more fun when its a controversial topic we can all get inflamed about.

lecks · Post by **lecks** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 1:03 am

Arcane WIzard wrote:Evolution has nothing to do with the creation or destruction of energy particles, only with change, which you yourself have stated is perfectly possible.

The theory of evolution only applies to living organisms. In the context of this theory, our planet is not a living organism. Other theories apply to the creation and change of our planet.

The theory of evolution says nothing about the creation, or lack thereof, of the first creatures to ever live.

Also, where in the bible does it say that god created creatures with his hands? He might've used his feet (or evolution) for all you know.

as i said, read genesis 1:1-26 thats where it says he used his voice to create. maybe you should read the bible before making a fool of yourself...

but yea lets move on.

DarkerLine · Post by **DarkerLine** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 1:08 am

http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_1.htm

I don't see anything about hands. Maybe YOU should read the Bible instead of making a fool of yourself (and isn't that ironic).

"Last edited by lecks on Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total" *rolls eyes*

lecks · Post by **lecks** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 1:15 am

hands? who said anything about hands? i didn't. and aren't we gonna move on?

okay here's a topic.

does anybody know why fingers are called fingers? ive never seen em fing.

Homestar · Post by **Homestar** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 5:07 am

Alright I know some of you have been waiting... and wondering where my 'last post' was (unless further questioned), I had a few obligations to fufill and was delayed slightly, here it is...

Dysfunction wrote:I challenge you to point me out one piece of solid evidence for your God.

An honest question deserves an honest answer; My answers/points have been slightly talked about, but not directly or fully; henceforth, some of this may sound familiar. I also understand everyone wants to skim through the posts and give a responce, so I have given a 'quick overlook' of what I'm going to say, and go into detail accordingly after listing all my points. Alright, here it is

:

1) Creation itself is proof that there is a God.

2) Prophesies, proven in History, many being recorded outside of the Bible.

3) 300 proofs there is a God (ha ha ha, this is just a joke, got to have a laugh sometime (: )

4) Irreducible Complexity

5) Matter must be created

6) Morals

7) The decay, and movement of the Universe (sun, moon, earth, ect.)

1) Creation itself is proof that there is a God
Have you ever thought of the atom? that mee microscopic mass of orbiting spheres is utterly astounding. the preciseness of such on object that is very delicate, yet very powerful.

The Universe is finely tuned. Don't forget the constants that set the universe. things like: proton mass, the electromagnetic force, the speed of light, the gravitational pull, the strong force, the weak force, ect. if any of these forces was ever-so-slightly different, the universe would be uninhabital. Who set such constants? The accuracies at which they relate to each other? could that, in addition to all of the universe only become of an unlikely chance?

2)Prophesies, proven in History
- The Golden Gate in Jerusalem
Ezekiel 44:1-3: "Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it [was] shut. Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. [It is] for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of [that] gate, and shall go out by the way of the same."

The Golden gate in Jerusalem, a sacred gate which led into the temple of Solomon, later this temple was destroyed by the arabs and the 'sacred dome of the rock' was built on top of the old foundation. This gate was most improbal for closing, because it was the closest to the 'sacred rock' and would be most logical for the muslims pouring in every day to worship.
In AD 30 Jesus walked through that gate, fufilling the first part of the prophesy ("the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.")
In the 16th Century Soultan Solomon (possible spelling) decided to rebuild the wall, and with it the Golden Gate. Immideatly after rebuilding the gate it was ordered to be shut, not only that, but walled up with blocks of stone.

- The City of Petera
This city was clefted into the rocky moutaneous canyon side, and was protected by it's narrow 'road'
Isaiah 34:11, 13-15 "But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness." "And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, [and] a court for owls.The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate."
This city was very rich and powerful, being a main trade route for much of the ancient world. Corruption and perversion was why the city was cursed, and in addition to a better trade route; was the reason for it's destruction. The prophesy was fulfilled and the city of Petra was abandoned, left to crumble, and never re-inhabited.

- The City of Tyre
Click here for Ezekiel 26: (for sake of space)
Tyre was another rich and powerful city that was were against Israel and fell into peversion. It was prophesied that the whole city would be destroyed and thrown into the sea.
if you look at the picture the pennunsula was at one time an Island, but when Alaxander the Great made war with tyre he and his men threw the whole city into the sea. After they had relinquished the city, they scraped the dirt flat and made a bridge to connect the island Tyre had fled to, with the main-land. eventually the tides mounded this bridge, turning it into a penninsula.

there are many many more prophesies that are proven true, but for the sake of time, (mostly mine) I'll leave you to trust me, or even better, rescearch it further.

3)(in case you didn't catch on... it was a joke)

4) Irreducible Complexity:
-Multicomponent parts to any given organell or any given system in a cell, all of which are necessary for a given function. That is if you remove any part you lose function of that system. All components must be present for an irreducibly complex system to perform its function.

pictured below is the flagellum of a bacteria. there are 40 protein parts necessary for this 'machine' to work. All 40 parts must also be built (and present) in a presice order and at specific times or else the flagellum simply will not work, or will not be built.

In Darwin's theory every step must provide some kind of advantage.

Darwin, in his book: [u]Origin of Species[/u] wrote:Natural Selection is scrutinizing the slightest varations, rejecting those that are bad, and preserving those that are good

.

Darwin, in his book: [u]Origin of Species[/u] wrote:If it could be demenstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, sucessive slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down

- 150 years ago when Darwin was writing his book, scientists didn't know about irreducibly complex machines.

- In evolutionary terms you have to be able to explain how you can build this system gradually when there's no function until you have all those parts in place. Only after this requirement are you able to use natural selection.

If evolution is ture there should be hundreds of thousands of links, because of these slow, sucessive, inter-mediate links. However there aren't. only one link (which I mentioned earler) has any credible value what-so-ever, the woman-ape named 'lucy'. But (as I also mentioned earleir) is less the 1/4 of a skeleton, various parts were found miles apart, and 'billions of years' difference in strata.

5) Matter must be created
- First Law of Thermodynamics- Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only change form.
-Second Law of Thermodynamics- The entropy* of the universe must always either increase or remain the same. It can never decrease. (everything is in a constant state of 'constincancy' or decay, but evolution talks about everything getting better.)
*(measure of the disorder that exists in any system)
- Newtons first Law: Objects in motion (or at rest) tend* to stay in motion (or at rest) until it is acted upon by an outside force)
*(Merriam-Webster Definition: to move, direct, or develop one's course in a particular direction)

6)Morals
Without a god there are no morals. If we came about by mere chance, we are governed only by mere chance. If we came about by a god, we are governed only by a god. Beleiving evolution fully you have no morals, no right or wrong; only opionions that aren't solid or backed up by anything. To accept atheism is to accept chaos, both in creation, and in life (natural selection is just the idea of ordered chaos).

7)The decay, and movement of the Universe
Talked about in #5, but the Earth is decaying, the Sun, moon, everything in the universe is in a state of constant decay... not growing greater. For instance every year the Earth moves away from the sun very slightly (about 2") If rewound billions of years we would be in an enviornment without liquid water, but only of steam. The moon also moves away from the earth about an inch or so every year, if rewound billiobns of years, could be found imbedded in Earth's surface. The magnetic field weakens every year by a certain amount, but that also if rewound, results in a redicusly strong magnetic feild.

Thus ends the way-to-long-post.

threefingeredguy · Post by **threefingeredguy** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 5:12 am

Homestar wrote:Without a god there are no morals.

Are you kidding? Even the most godless people can have morals. I believe Timendus has said that even though he doesn't believe in god, he has morals. It comes from what YOU believe is right or wrong. I think of what things would be like if they were happening to me, and decide if that is moral. And don't say that that is "god's law", it is a simple and instinctive human law.

lloydkirk1989 · Post by **lloydkirk1989** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 5:16 am

Then again, don't make the ridiculous assumption that Christianity and Evolution cannot coexist. There are some of us (takes a bow) that believe in both and have no problem with them. There is a tremendous amount of evidence for evolution. Then again, I see a tremendous amount of evidence for Christ as well

I believe that evolution does occur to a limited degree, but it is within the species. In other words, one species can't evolve into another. For instance, I read about an indian tribe inhabiting the Andes mountains in South America. These people had abnormaly large lungs, about twice as large as the normal person. This was because they had been living at high altitudes, breathing 'thin air' for centuries. Though their lungs had evolved, they were still humans. This is different from some primative amphibian evolving into a man. And my question is, if drastic evolution occured then why isn't it happening today?

CoBB · Post by **CoBB** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 7:42 am

I wouldn't mind carrying on with the religious topic either, but with one little change: no argument can be repeated more than once.

Homestar · Post by **Homestar** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 1:20 pm

threefingeredguy wrote:
Homestar wrote:Without a god there are no morals.
Are you kidding? Even the most godless people can have morals. I believe Timendus has said that even though he doesn't believe in god, he has morals. It comes from what YOU believe is right or wrong. I think of what things would be like if they were happening to me, and decide if that is moral. And don't say that that is "god's law", it is a simple and instinctive human law.

Outside of a god all you have is self-defining morals. These 'morals' are your opinions and cannot be enforced on others. Likewise, you can commit murder, rape, ect. and say it was within your morals; and that you beleived it was right. What right do others have to define your morals if it is only their opinion that you are/were wrong.

This 'system' has no basis, no power, no coherence, and no existance except in the mind.
---------------

Adding to what lloydkirk1989 said above.

That is only micre-evolution, I have never heard of that particular case that you described, but due to time will assume that it is true.

Also If evolution is true there should be millions of inter-mediate links betwen the species in the fossil record, and even today. Micro evolution has these intermediate links, and is proven true.

Timendus · Post by **Timendus** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 2:22 pm

ALL of this has already been addressed, Homestar, by several people individually... Your post doesn't add anything, nor does it prove anything. If you want arguments for this statement, just scroll back through this topic.

CoBB · Post by **CoBB** » Tue 27 Dec, 2005 2:23 pm

Still trying to say something new.

Homestar wrote:Outside of a god all you have is self-defining morals. These 'morals' are your opinions and cannot be enforced on others. Likewise, you can commit murder, rape, ect. and say it was within your morals; and that you beleived it was right. What right do others have to define your morals if it is only their opinion that you are/were wrong.

Well, in real life morals depend on community consensus. This also implies that it changes both in space and in time, always adapting to the circumstances. You can't break the rules of your community without some penalty, but as you are brought up to respect them, most of the time you wouldn't want anyway. Besides, this explains why there are so huge differences between subsequent generations, especially in the past two centuries.

On the other hand, all a divine entity can offer is their arbitrary set of rigid rules. That's quite a problem when the world develops in a way that the rules can't be applied to all the possible situations. No ancient teachings can help you out in morality issues concerning handling of personal data, transplantation of organs, weapons of mass destruction, genetic engineering, digital copyright, confronting an advanced alien civilisation and so on. Some of the teachings are outright harmful, like the Bible's stance on protecting the environment.