Debate thread (revived)

dysfunction · Post by **dysfunction** » Sat 24 Dec, 2005 9:58 pm

The problem with that point is that macroevolution has been observed to occur. It happens with species of bacteria extremely often, but there is also a significant number of observed cases of speciation in plant and animal species.

necro · Post by **necro** » Sun 25 Dec, 2005 10:08 pm

an eye can evolve from a sigle cell growing into a flat plate, bending into a depth percieving cup, then forming a fully spherical unclosed eye giving focus, then a fringe of transparent cells becomes a fully lensed surface, then it fills with jelly to support its weight out of water, and augments as needed for each creature leading to the eye of, say, a human. Same goes for other features, fins become arm like flipers to alow exploration of beachs, then arms to alow full terestrial life...lungs from gills...feathers from scales, et ceteria.

KevinJB · Post by **KevinJB** » Sun 25 Dec, 2005 10:31 pm

Well done. *applauds*

Then again, don't make the ridiculous assumption that Christianity and Evolution cannot coexist. There are some of us (takes a bow) that believe in both and have no problem with them. There is a tremendous amount of evidence for evolution. Then again, I see a tremendous amount of evidence for Christ as well

Arcane WIzard · Post by **Arcane WIzard** » Sun 25 Dec, 2005 11:50 pm

Or other religions and evolution.

dysfunction · Post by **dysfunction** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 5:04 pm

Of course, evolution doesn't rule out any religion (except for various fundamentalist sects that disbelieve evolution). In fact, there is no evidence to contradict any religion. However, I challenge you to point me out one piece of solid evidence for your God.

lecks · Post by **lecks** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 5:55 pm

okay its time for me to actuially input something. okay.

1st: get a king james version bible

okay now... read genesis 1:1-21

to sum it all up... (with some quotes)

IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light... And God divided the light from the darkness... Let there be a firmament... And God called the firmament Heaven... And God created great wales, and every living creature the moveth, which the waters brought fourth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good... And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so... And God said, Let us make man in our image, after likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man... (Holy Bible Genesis 1:1-26)

SO GOD CREATED MAN..

now evolution contradicts this...

the theory of evoltion states that we evolved, (or changed in order to be better able to survive) from apes into the man we are today. The theory of evolution argues against the belief of a creator. it argues that one being, one form, one thing cannot create something from nothing. the study of atoms and such which derived from the theory of evolution further disproved the belief of a creator because of one rule they figured out. matter cannot be created nor destroyed. matter simply re-arranges itself into something completely different, such as if you have carbon and you add a proton, that wont be carbon anymore.

just like saying if you take glucose and re-arrange its elements... (glucose) C6H12O6 ---> (itll become) H12O6 (which is 6 water molecules) and C6 (which is 6 carbon molecules)...

that was just an example. i was just trying to enlighten you about the rule that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. matter just simply re-arranges itself into something else.

Us humans came from apes... states the theory of evolution
Us humans came from the voice of God... states the Holy Bible

but may i ask, why did not all apes evolve?
and also, why did God create us?

what if in fact these theorys are both wrong?what if there is a different true reason to how we came here and why we did?

only time will tell..

but we do know that theory of evolution and bible argue against each other.

dysfunction · Post by **dysfunction** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 6:18 pm

A common misconception about evolution is that humans evolved from apes. We didn't. However, humans and apes DID evolve from a common ancestor, which was neither a human nor an ape. So apes did evolve, to the creatures we see in the present day.

DarkerLine · Post by **DarkerLine** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 7:12 pm

One doesn't have to interpret the Bible completely literally.

Arcane WIzard · Post by **Arcane WIzard** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 7:37 pm

lecks wrote:SO GOD CREATED MAN..

Evolution doesn't say he didn't create man, just how, which the bible doesn't explain (at least nowhere in the bit you quoted, I haven't read the whole thing) so they can't contradict.

lecks · Post by **lecks** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 8:07 pm

but common science which came from evolution does say that matter cannot be created nor destroyed and also something cannot be created from nothing. that being said, god created earth from nothing. the earth didnt evolve from something. but what youre saying is that evolution isnt saying he didnt create man. if that was true, than the theory of evolution would be wrong cause when you go back to the first creature alive, you'll see that it didnt evolve from something but came from the voice of god. thats why evolution cannot agree with the bible.

Arcane WIzard · Post by **Arcane WIzard** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 8:34 pm

Evolution has nothing to do with the creation or destruction of energy particles, only with change, which you yourself have stated is perfectly possible.

The theory of evolution only applies to living organisms. In the context of this theory, our planet is not a living organism. Other theories apply to the creation and change of our planet.

The theory of evolution says nothing about the creation, or lack thereof, of the first creatures to ever live.

Also, where in the bible does it say that god created creatures with his hands? He might've used his feet (or evolution) for all you know.

dysfunction · Post by **dysfunction** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 8:45 pm

Evolution doesn't answer where the very first creatures came from. There are a number of hypotheses to explain that. Currently the most popular one with scientists is biogenesis- the hypothesis that organic molecules became increasingly more complex until they became life. Other hypotheses include panspermia- the idea that microbial life traveled here by asteroids or comets from other planets- and of course special creation, or I.D.

Ajaxhunter · Post by **Ajaxhunter** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 9:02 pm

necro wrote:an eye can evolve from a sigle cell growing into a flat plate, bending into a depth percieving cup, then forming a fully spherical unclosed eye giving focus, then a fringe of transparent cells becomes a fully lensed surface, then it fills with jelly to support its weight out of water, and augments as needed for each creature leading to the eye of, say, a human. Same goes for other features, fins become arm like flipers to alow exploration of beachs, then arms to alow full terestrial life...lungs from gills...feathers from scales, et ceteria.

Awesome. Now, propose specifically how that structure and the mechanisms that let you see arose on a molecular level. Not so simple, is it? What enzymes are used in the reaction cascade? What molecules are phosphorylated? How are specific molecules activated and deactivated? It's all fine and good to say "well, this can form like this, and then this can go here and develop this structure while this accumulates here", but without any specific step-by-step explanation of how each part of the mechanism evolved, you have proven nothing and you have explained nothing as to how it arose.

Overview of the Vision Process:
http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/ ... ision.html

Arcane WIzard · Post by **Arcane WIzard** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 10:00 pm

Ajaxhunter wrote:
necro wrote:an eye can evolve from a sigle cell growing into a flat plate, bending into a depth percieving cup, then forming a fully spherical unclosed eye giving focus, then a fringe of transparent cells becomes a fully lensed surface, then it fills with jelly to support its weight out of water, and augments as needed for each creature leading to the eye of, say, a human. Same goes for other features, fins become arm like flipers to alow exploration of beachs, then arms to alow full terestrial life...lungs from gills...feathers from scales, et ceteria.
Awesome. Now, propose specifically how that structure and the mechanisms that let you see arose on a molecular level. Not so simple, is it? What enzymes are used in the reaction cascade? What molecules are phosphorylated? How are specific molecules activated and deactivated? It's all fine and good to say "well, this can form like this, and then this can go here and develop this structure while this accumulates here", but without any specific step-by-step explanation of how each part of the mechanism evolved, you have proven nothing and you have explained nothing as to how it arose.

Overview of the Vision Process:
http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~edudev/ ... ision.html

Here you go:
http://www.google.nl/search?q=evolution+of+the+eye

Timendus · Post by **Timendus** » Mon 26 Dec, 2005 10:09 pm

Nice, I've been gone for 5 days, the topic has extended for four more pages, and nothing has changed in the debate... Yawn...